Side Note From Kat: Brett's reputation, as an agent and a person, runs far ahead of him. As a performer, he worked consistently. As a student, he received his Master of Music Degree, with an advanced certificate in Vocal Pedagogy, from NYU Steinhardt. Now, he's worked at Carlton, Goddard, and Freer ("CGF Talent" on the resumé) for the past seven years, climbing his way to agent five years ago.
Brett's thrown a lot at the wall and, somehow, found a way to make all of it stick. Naturally, he was a dream interview for what we stand for here at The Obvious Path. Pre-Coronavirus, we set up an in-person interview at his apartment and arranged to have it supervised by the Associate Director of Public Relations at the Public Theatre. (Okay... that's his wife, Laura. How COOL though, right??)
And... we left giddy. Every person who implored us to meet them couldn’t have done them justice. What was supposed to be a 20-30 minute interview turned into a three-hour lesson in life, attitude, marriage, the business, and laughs. He and Laura are authentically human, constantly striving to be better, and completely devoid of the arrogance that normally accompanies those of their immense success.
Don't worry, we didn't transcribe all three hours. We did, however, go off script a lot. And it's worth every word. Brett generously navigates us through life decisions, pursuing happiness, actor/client communication, and how life has changed during this pandemic.
We started this blog because we wanted to highlight those in our business that are sincerely good people. And we've gotten to meet a lot of wonderful folks. Brett? He's one of the best.
Brett, we’re really thrilled that you agreed to do this. You sandwiched a successful acting career between receiving your BFA in Musical Theatre Performance from Western Michigan University and a Master of Music Degree from New York University's Steinhardt School with an Advanced Certification in Vocal Pedagogy. What was your life before agenting?
Sure! In high school I was really big into three things: hockey, choir, and musicals. Sadly, I was only good at two of the three of these. I’ll let you guess which two. Choir and musicals dominated my every thought, every spare moment I had, and any money I earned, borrowed, or found in the couch cushions. When the college conversation came along it was: “are you going to a music theatre program, a theatre program, or, you know, a regular job?” as we called it in my family.
Eventually, my Mom knew how much I loved singing and music so she offered to meet me in the middle and encouraged a degree in both education and music--that way I could teach choir or things in that realm. If I went that route, she would pay for it. So, I said sure! You know, I’m fortunate, because I’m terrible at math, but I’m a bit geeky when it comes to the voice and I was able to read and write music despite it being very mathematical. It’s just a different part of my brain so it seemed like a good fit.
I went to Alma College which is super small -- it has like 1,400 people. You could literally run across the full campus in 2-3 minutes. (laughs) What I loved about it was that I made the most unbelievable friends and their choir was amazing. What I didn’t love about it was that there were no elements of musical theatre whatsoever, it was strictly choir. Two years in, I said to my mom that I was unhappy and just couldn’t do it any longer. I then applied to a few big schools: Boston Conservatory, University of Michigan, Michigan State, and Western Michigan University. I got into several of them, but wasn’t really good at the competitive element and these schools really required that. We’ll circle back to that later.
I chose to go to Western Michigan and get my BFA in Music Performance and I loved it. BUT I came out of Western Michigan and knew nothing about the business, moved to the city, you know, and got my teeth kicked in for about a year and a half. (laughs)
Did you have representation?
I was lucky enough to get an agent out of my showcase and that was life changing. The person who signed me is still an agent today and I love them with my whole heart. All of my success as an actor started with that office and was because of them. I worked regionally a bunch, had some close calls on Broadway, and was introduced to the world of soap operas. As a weird side note, I paid my way through Western Michigan as a basic paramedic. My brother worked for a company at the time as one and recommended that I get the basic certification to help financially. So I did, and it did!
I say that because I ended up going in for As The World Turns as a paramedic that said one line, “Okay let’s go.” They needed to have a “real” parametric say that line, I guess? Regardless, I ended up landing the gig. (laughs) I then went over to their sister show, Guiding Light, and became a regular fixture there. This all started as a co-star, which I think was called a “u/5” at the time. It was always me as the paramedic and then an extra wheeling in the patient. It was super helpful, because I already knew the jargon. And I wouldn’t call myself a “advisor” on the show, but sometimes the writers would write vital signs that were just totally crazy. I would be like, “If we say these lines, it means the person is dead. Do we want that?” (laughs) Eventually, Guiding Light made that paramedic always be me. Recurring on Guiding Light was amazing. Someone is hurt every week, so I always had a lot of work to do. (laughs). I did that for just over 2 years.
This all took place around the time I met my future wife-to-be, Laura. Guiding Light was eventually canceled and then As the World Turns was right behind it. When that happened, I officially returned to the auditioning world but couldn’t shake this feeling of discontent. I had the realization, with the help of Laura, that I needed a change. I just couldn’t get excited about working again and frankly, I didn’t feel ‘good at this’ anymore. Soap acting, to me, was not acting, it was indicating and I forgot how to tell a story, find honesty in my work, and be effective in the audition room. My auditions became worse and I started to really doubt myself. The theatrical world had become so unfamiliar to me. I had gone to a different place mentally and couldn't really get to the other side.
I decided to go and find it! I decided to officially go back to school and get my Masters. I applied to several schools (again) and chose NYU-Steinhardt. When registering for classes, they asked if I would like to get an advanced certificate studying Vocal Pedagogy (which is understanding and acknowledgement of how the voice works). I said yes immediately. It’s very science-y. I’m obsessed with Vocal Pedagogy. I love it. (laughs) When I’ve had too many drinks with my Vocal Pedagogy friends, this is all we want to talk about. No one wants to hang out with us. (laughs) That’s how much I love it.
Fast forward two years, I finished up and came out of school and felt like I was ready to be an actor again. I signed with a different agent, got a job right away, and was immediately unhappy again. Laura, who mind you, has supported me through, like, ten jobs said in her loving and sweet way, “Babe, you’re not happy. Do something that makes you happy. ” She had just started her full-time job at The Public, we were engaged, things were moving, and I then decided I knew where the other side was. It was no longer on that side of the table.
Obviously, not the “obvious path” towards agenting. (laughs) What pushed you towards agenting? How was that transition?
I applied to tons of jobs and no one would give me an interview for a free position. I was the weird 30-year-old man competing with casting assistants who were like 10! It was tough! Then one day, I saw a very witty internship ad on Playbill and applied. It made me chuckle. Joel Carlton (Co-founder and Partner of CGF Talent) called me in and I immediately recognized him. He had actually tried to sign me as an actor when I showcased out of Western years before when he was with another office. It was one of those crazy small world moments. We chatted, laughed, and had a great report together. At the end of the interview, Joel told me he had just filled the position right before my meeting, but wanted to be respectful and still honor our time together. I thought that was really kind of him, but was cranky that I wasn’t going to get the job. We shook hands, and I remember he held my hand for an extra beat and there was this kind of funny look on his face. I said thank you again and left to go and meet Laura in the park because we were going to a show or something. Fifteen minutes later, my phone rang and it was him. He said, “If we were to not offer this other person the job, would you start on Tuesday?” I talked to Laura, with him waiting for me on the phone, and said yes. I took the job as an unpaid intern and the rest is history. I’ve been there for nearly seven years now. I’ve been an agent for the past 5 -- first starting as an intern, then assistant, then junior agent, and now franchised agent.
I think that is actually one of my fondest memories. Working with Joel, Michael, and Christopher has been one of the best things to ever happen to me. There isn’t a day that goes by that I’m not appreciative to them nor a day that goes by that I don’t appreciate what Joel did for me personally. He recently passed after a long and valiant fight with cancer. I miss him every day.
Did you know you were going to be happy agenting?
Not until it was an official thing. I knew I loved actors and their intense, emotional, brilliant, hilarious, elliequent, and frustrating energy. No matter what I did, it needed to involve them. So being their advocate made sense. Working with them as a partner made sense. I mean, nobody knows actors better than other actors. Nobody understands or has more empathy for the ridiculousness that’s asked of them every single day. It’s absurd! The amount of times I’ve had to call an actor at 4pm with an appointment time for the following morning that has 16 pages of sides is significant. But it’s those conversations and that kind of trust that makes a strong relationship. Truly, most days of the week I come home in awe of what they are able to accomplish and achieve in the business and audition room. Feeling like we are partners in it together has always been my approach. If everyone does their work, then it can be a really great relationship together. It’s really important to trust one another. That trust is and should exist throughout our industry. Personally, my relationship with casting directors is another thing I hold sacred. There just needs to be trust and collaboration there too. It’s the only way to navigate the audition process where all parties benefit and the right people get the job. Honestly, casting directors jobs are unbelievably difficult. I don’t know how they do it and don’t think I could.
You beat us to our next question, which we didn’t plan, but you knew it wasn’t casting?
Oh I knew and know it’s not for me. In my opinion, they are the unsung heroes of the creative process. Their work is unbelievably hard. Casting houses serve two masters: the producers and teams who are casting the show, and the agent who wants it to be their clients who populate it. That is a gatekeeper role that I want nothing to do with. (laughs) I’m certain you can hear it in my tone, but I have nothing but respect and admiration for them. They do not get enough accolades for their work, but it’s definitely something I recognize when I’m seeing shows, watching TV or movies, and reading casting releases. I know that profession is not for me, but the exchanges I have with them everyday are really important and is where that trust I talked about before comes into play. At CGF we break up our accounts by casting houses and that has allowed me to build some strong relationships with those who I work with daily. Tara’s entire office; Stephen at Carnahan’s; Jordan, Heidi, and Kate at The Public; and Bonnie, Steven, and Zoe at Finnigan/Jacobs, to just name a few. I need to talk to these people every day about clients, projects, and logistical nonsense. Why not have that exchange be pleasant and beneficial to all parties? Casting needs to set up a session and I likely have people that fit what they’re looking for. Our communication and trust is how people get appointments and how casting gets a great group of actors in front of their team. There are times to push, there are times to listen, and there are times to get out of the way. The trust with your casting colleagues is how you navigate the process.
What do you think about sunk costs? Now, it’s obvious that your career now is so informed by what you studied and your life experience as an actor. But did you ever feel like you had leveraged your entire scholastic career pursuing something that isn’t exactly what you studied?
Somewhat. It was hard getting a Masters in Music and a degree in vocal pedagogy and then going into a career that technically has nothing to do with either of those on face value. The job description does not list anything that I just spent a quarter of a million dollars on and that’s hard (laughs). But what I ultimately see and what I take comfort in now is: it’s all related.
But, to answer your question directly -- absolutely there were times. Why did I pay for this? Was this a waste of money and time? Those were things I thought about, but I’m teased in the office, because anytime a client has a vocal issue I will, like, perk up and everyone in the office just transfers me the call. (laughs) I love that. I can use that education to help our clients at CGF. Another thing I’m so proud of is my relationship with voice teachers in NYC and how I’m able to connect our clients to the voice teachers that suit them based on my understanding of what they need. They really intersect beautifully.
And that, I think, that’s the goal of most people. Finding a career and seeing if there is a way to intersect with whatever your passion or hobby they love doing. Even if it’s only occasionally. I mean, it’s called a job so no matter what it is there are gonna be days it really feels like one. Some of my closest friends and colleagues in the industry didn’t know what they wanted to do. They may have started out as actors, but have since become stage managers, or music directors, or company managers, or agents/managers. I think they trusted their gut and trusted what was given to them by the universe and continued to search from there. Who’s to say they are even done searching?
Well, since we’ve wasted so much time on unscripted questions! Oh my god, we’re taking so much of your time! We’re getting back on track, I promise.
What’s been the biggest surprise of your career?
Ironically, that I was good at this. It’s only been 5 years as a franchised agent. The first year was a lot of treading water. It was figuring it out, watching my bosses a lot, and learning contracts and rules. Then, you reach this level where that becomes easy and second nature to you. From there, it’s very important that you take that extra step.
That extra step being, adding humanity, diligence, and humor. It’s realizing that what we do is ridiculous. We are brokering contracts and making agreements for people to go and play pretend. (laughs) I honestly wouldn’t change it for anything. There are days that I come home and say to Laura, “I feel like I agented today!” An example would be that an actor who I viewed was perfect for a job, wasn’t getting in. After reaching out to casting via a phone call, email, or four follow-ups: they agreed to see them and the actor gets the job! I love when this happens! Sometimes I’ll get a follow-up email from casting saying, “I’m sorry I was annoyed with you. This person was perfect for the job!” (laughs) I then say, “I’m equally sorry for annoying you.” Those are good days and I think it’s when that extra step really holds true.
CGF has a reputation of developing great communication with exceptional talent. How do you describe a healthy and productive agent/client relationship?
It’s like I mentioned before, it’s a partnership. An actor is not in service of an agent and an agent is not in service of an actor. Everyone needs to pull their weight to have to be a successful relationship. There are a lot of offices out there and a lot of actors out there who don’t view it like that. Ultimately, I think those are usually the more unhappy relationships.
When you’re working with an agent or you’re working with a manager: it’s basically dating! You are choosing to be in this relationship, to confide in them, to trust in them, and to allow them to speak on your behalf professionally. It’s a very real relationship. Everyone needs to communicate and agree that they want the same things and see a way to get there. An agent is going to bring things to you and make decisions with you to build your career. If you don’t agree or have trouble communicating, that might not be the right fit. That’s why I think trusting your gut at your first meeting or initial introduction is so key. If we are going on a first “date” together and talking about you in the business, do you feel heard? Do you agree with what I’m saying? Do you think I see you the way you want to be seen? These are things to think about and ask yourself. First meetings are all about figuring each other out. Obviously it might take a minute to warm up to each other as we pick at our tuna tartare appetizer, but you should feel like you are collaborating with someone, not being dictated to or met with indifference.
As an agent, I am not the one who has to make the decision, but I want to talk to you about ‘Column A’ and ‘Column B’ and why those things matter to you in making this decision. I realize that at the end of the day, you make the call. And no matter what I think personally, I will be your advocate. We talk about that a lot in our office. Our desire is for everyone in the partnership to be happy and feel heard. There are days we are successful and days that we are not, but that is something we really strive to do.
Look, all agents are out there trying to find talented actors and get them jobs. We all offer different and unique experiences. There are times we lose clients or potential clients to much larger offices that make promises or incentivize them with opportunities. Whether they are telling the truth or not, some actors will go with them and that’s totally fine, it’s just the way it is. You can’t force someone to date you if they don’t want to. If there is one thing my middle school and high school dating life taught me it’s that. Ok, did I officially go too far on the dating analogy? (Laugh) Each agent and office are going to tell you different things and it’s up to you to decide what makes sense and is the right fit. I can tell you that one of my office's biggest strengths is the access to us. That’s something we can offer and something we really thrive on. You aren’t alone on your career path, and we are there to navigate and weather good times and bad with you.
At the onset of your career, how would you have defined success? Where you are now, has your definition changed?
I think at the onset of my career and where I began, I viewed success the way a lot of people view it: Am I known and important? Do people talk about me? Is it good things that they say? Can I brag about myself and my clients? Am I doing things that the industry thinks are impressive? Stuff like that. I think at the onset, you do that as a way to gauge this business and to measure the “agent” things you think you need to be successful at. I think those were traps I fell into.
Recently, and by recently I mean a few years, I feel like I’ve been focusing on realizing that we are human beings and success should mean you are a well-rounded person, someone who can hear and listen to your needs, take the agent hat off, and be a person with the clients.
And to think of who you’re choosing to surround yourself with. The best part of this city is there’s not a lack of people and not a lack of opportunities to care for yourself by making those choices. And that’s something Laura and I both strive for at all times is to be real people. There is no reason to be unapproachable, ever. There’s no reason to be false or fake. And you learn these things by failing, by coming home and realizing, “I wasn’t a great person today” or “I lost my cool” and then saying, “I will strive to be better tomorrow.” And so, that is the new definition of success, but ultimately, when you have those goals in mind, the weight becomes more easily distributed and you do better at your job anyway.
Looking back, what’s one thing you would change?
So, if you’ve ever met me, you might agree that I’m weird with a dash of socially awkward. I have a stream of consciousness thinking process and sometimes that gets the better of me. Looking back, I think I feared judgement on this and decided a very guarded approach was the “professional” way to go. It was not. I didn't allow myself to meet people who I should be interacting with--whether that was when I was an actor I was interested in working with or a business meal with an artistic director. I shied away from it. In our business, networking is a very important part of it. We’ve been very fortunate in our office that we’ve had very busy award seasons. But those come with a lot of these networking opportunities. They may be superficial and even pointless, but being seen and supporting your clients at these functions is a very important part of my job. I’ve gotten better at it, but it’s still something I need to watch and work on.
Where are you on your mountain?
I’m just shy of half way, I think. It’s because there have been a lot of things to push me to where I am both upwards and downwards. Life lessons, losses, friendships, mentorships, all of that nonsense adds to the journey. Perspective is an amazing thing to think about because in the day to day, I don’t think about how far you’ve come. You just deal with the challenges and accomplishments as they come to you each day. Thinking about where I was a year ago, where I was two years ago, it was a very different place in all avenues of my life. As far as using this mountain imagery, there’s a lot that I’ve accomplished and I know that there has been movement, but there’s a lot of movement to go and I don’t even know if I know where that will be. I know there is another phase or ‘thing’ that I have not quite grasped yet. That will be exciting to figure out. I know I’ve come a long way and I have a long way to go. And I'm certain someone or something will be throwing rocks at me while I climb.
How has Coronavirus changed your perspective on the business and/or your life?
Ugh! It’s changed my perspective more than I ever could have possibly imagined. What our industry has gone through over the last 5-6 weeks is truly upsetting and very surprising. From a business standpoint, we are dealing with the immense challenge of not being able to gather together in an industry that requires that from all those who participate in it. Whether you’re seeing a Broadway show, watching a movie, shooting a TV series, or going to a concert, you are surrounded by dozens, hundreds, and thousands of actors, employees, and audience members who are also taking part in that experience. When you remove the ability to gather, you lose the industry on the whole immediately.
Right now, everyone who celebrates and relies on this artform for income is doing all they can to breathe life back into it. This is a scary, but really inspiring thing. People are fighting for our business fiercely and in a multitude of ways. Casting is leading the charge by moving forward with some projects by way of self-tapes and virtual meetings with creative teams. Other full productions in development are having Zoom rehearsals and work sessions with the full casts to keep things moving forward. The voiceover world is still very much alive and they quickly adapted by sending equipment home with actors so they could continue to work professionally and safely in their own home. That is resilient and gives me hope.
I personally think we should all embrace the new technology and use it as an opportunity to stay creative and improve while we work towards some semblance of our industry returning. I do think it’s important to mention that things will be different. I hear people throw around the term “normal” a lot and how when things go back to “normal.” It’s very important to realize that when we emerge on the other side of this, and we definitely will, it will be to a new normal with new ideas, protocols, and approaches, but that can still be a future to look forward to.
RAPID FIRE:
Favorite Broadway show of all time: Take Me Out. Very excited about the revival! It was the first show I ever saw on Broadway.
TV show you binge: Tiger King, West World, The Great British Bake Off. To say we binge these shows is an understatement.
On your commute, you’re listening to ________: More often than not, Laura! We get to ride the train together for a bit on our commute, so we talk on our way. On my walk to my office, I’m listening to Ben Rector. He’s incredible and basically sings about how all people in their mid-30’s are feeling about life on any given day.
Religious, Spiritual, or nah?: Religious, but I think spirituality goes with it. My faith is a part of who I am. My approach is and will always be an inclusive one--when I was younger that was very important to my mother, which greatly shaped my faith. People are people, they are unique and wonderful, they all get the same rights, and should be treated like people. We are all the same. As long as there is an inclusive approach to a faith or denomination, I’m open and in support of it.
Former side hustles: Bartender, catering, waiter, voice teacher, EMT, I even worked at a movie theatre. (Shout out: AMC Elmwood Plaza 8 in Lansing Michigan)
Having produced Steinhardt’s Musical Theatre showcase for several years...Your advice for someone heading into a showcase is _________: It is one audition. It is one showcase. It's an introduction that you are paying your school to give you. It will not matter after this. If it’s helpful, that’s great. If it’s not, that is fine also. If you crack/fall, no one will remember or care. Just treat it as an audition. I always try to focus on the person and find the song or piece that allows them to be them. Don’t just focus on the newest material or how attractive you can look. Nobody is better and being you, than you. Focus on that.
In a world where showcases don’t exist, what’s the best way to find an agent?: Referral through a Casting Director. Going back to that trust thing we talked about. If someone comes to me with a thought and I like and trust them, I will absolutely take the meeting.
Call or email?: Both, but it depends on what it’s for. If you email me, and I know you, you will get a response from me. That’s something I always strive to do. If you are calling, what are we talking about? Is it pressing? I mean, I’ll always take a phone call, it’s usually faster that way, but just be ready to chat about what’s on your mind. If I don’t know you, don’t call...that would be weird. Send a submission to CGF’s submission email, we all check that when things come in.
Question you want to hear when meeting with an actor: I want them to ask, “where do you see me in this business?” We always ask that too, to see if we agree. We need to be on the same page. Another great question is “What about my work resonated with you and made you respond to me?”
Biggest beef with the business: Sometimes the most talented person does not get the job. Sometimes the right person does not get the job. That is frustrating. Things are not always fair. That’s a hard realization.
Social media handles?: @cgftalent is our instagram. I do not have a personal one, because I’m 100 years old and my life just isn't that interesting.
Anything you’d like to promote?: I teach a “Business of the Business” call through the Growing Studio a few times a year. I’m happy to recommend that. But honestly, my plug aside, I encourage every actor to be in class. Find a way to be creative. Seminars, accountability groups, coaching, teaching, whatever. I also always challenge those to take class in the areas they need the most improvement in. If you are an amazing singer, take an acting or dance class. If you are Dame Judi Dench as an actor, maybe take some voice lessons, or movement classes.